Matthew Chiodi (00:01.166)
Tammy, thanks for coming on the show.

Tammy Klotz (00:03.568)
Thanks for having me, man, I'm happy to be here.

Matthew Chiodi (00:05.718)
Yeah, this is going to be fun. This actually, took a little bit for us to, to get this. I did move it. It was my fault at least once. It is, but I'm glad that we can finally sit down and you're joining us from the, the big apple from, New York city. This is fun. So this just underscores my part of my first question, which is you are a busy person. you're a successful executive, single mom, the nicest person I know.

Tammy Klotz (00:09.808)
We did. And then I had to change it, I think. So this has been a long time coming.

Tammy Klotz (00:23.472)
Yeah, yes.

Matthew Chiodi (00:35.68)
in cyber and on top of all that a recent author. So let's just I want to jump right into that. What was the catalyst for writing the book Leading with Empathy and Grace?

Tammy Klotz (00:49.126)
So that is a common question that I get asked and everybody wants to know like how did you do it, why did you do it? So we'll focus on the why. So I can go back in my career and specifically remember a conversation I had with one of my leaders back at Air Products and he literally sat me down and he said, Tammy, you need to teach people to lead the way that you do. And I looked at him and I said, mm, like.

this is just who I am. And he's like, yes, but more people need to do the things that you do. So that stuck with me, obviously, for years and years. And when I found myself, had a...

ended my career at Covanta Energy in April of 2023. And I had personally decided for me, I was going to take some time off to regroup, to refuel. And I had some personal stuff going on with my mom and my oldest daughter. So it was during that time that I said, okay, I'm gonna take six months off and I'm gonna use this time for me. And you know.

how LinkedIn and Facebook, like everybody's always listening, right? So of course I got a few of those, have you ever wanted to write a book, prompts in LinkedIn? And I said, know, like maybe now is the time. So I started to explore that and I spent some time figuring out.

how to go about it. And I wanted to use that time to kind of reflect on what my leadership lessons were over the course of my 20 to five to 30 year career and figure out how I could help others. And I went back to that conversation with my leader at Air Products and said, you know what? This is what he was talking about.

Matthew Chiodi (02:45.975)
Hmm.

Tammy Klotz (02:46.392)
So how do I give back? How do I teach?

in such a way that I was able to make it very conversational. I did not want it to be instructional or academic, right? I wanted to be filled with stories, things that worked for me so that others could actually benefit from that. And, you know, there is something to be said about the empathy and grace piece and why the book is actually named that. And part of that was through the discovery process that I worked on with my angel writer as we went through the

the development process. And one of the things that she had me do, which I thought was crazy at the time, but we had to create, or she asked me to create an avatar for the book, kind of in my own head and as a visual, right? And I was like, okay, and then she's like, okay, now you have to like name that avatar as well. And...

I again was like questioning her, but she knew what she was doing. And in the end, we decided to name the avatar Grace. And the reason we did that was that, you know, when I got stuck on, you know, either a topic or a point that I was trying to make, she literally would pause and she said, well, what would you tell Grace to do? And it was very effective and it really helped.

kind of set the tones at the stage as we went through the development of the book. in hindsight now, that was extremely beneficial to really drive home the points of what it means to lead with grace and empathy. Not necessarily two terms that we hear often in leadership, but it definitely is foundational to who I am as an individual and how I lead my teams as well.

Matthew Chiodi (04:40.974)
I love that. I love that. know I've thought about writing a book a couple of times. I got one of those, I got an email from somebody in the last couple of months that I just thought, ah, sounds like a lot of work. I'm sure it was. it a lot of work?

Tammy Klotz (04:55.256)
It was, it was, but one of the things that I decided, you know, I had six months off, right? And I knew if I did this on my own, it was not going to get done in six months, right? It would drag on, it would drag on, it would drag on. So again, I used it as an opportunity to time box the activity. And you know, people will ask me, they're like, so did you like just start writing? And I was like, no.

That's not how this works, right? So I had ideas that I would capture over time and I would jot down or take down in one note or whatever and things that I wanted to make sure that I didn't forget about including in the book.

And when I engaged and started working with my angel writer, we came up with the outline and then it was really a lot of hours on zoom calls with her, her asking me questions, telling stories and really her capturing the things that I wanted to put in paper. And quite honestly, I struggled with it for a little while because I sat there and I said, what, I'm not writing a damn thing. Right. And she's like, mm.

Matthew Chiodi (06:05.494)
Hmm.

Tammy Klotz (06:06.632)
Tammy, she was like, you need to stop. She was like, because you are, these are all your words, all your stories, I'm just helping you put them down on paper. So I had to get over that, right? Because that was part of the learning process for me going through the book writing experience. And the other thing that I asked her to do for me is like, look, I was like, I don't want this just to be my...

Matthew Chiodi (06:15.426)
Hmm.

Tammy Klotz (06:30.518)
my words, right? I wanted validation from people who I have worked with, people who have worked for me, people I have partnered with throughout my career so that there was some, you know, kind of the other side of the story being told as well. So she was gracious and I had provided her with a set of probably close to 50 names and she was like, my gosh, what have I agreed to do, right?

She joked with me and she's like, Tammy, she's like, we're never going to get all these people to reply. She's like, we're lucky, you know, if we get like 15, 20 responses. And in the end, I ended up with 30, 33 people, I think, who responded and did either written responses to the set of questions she had or actual interviews like we're doing now. that's a testament as well to, you know, my leadership style, the image.

Matthew Chiodi (07:16.428)
amazing.

Tammy Klotz (07:30.312)
that I've been able to have on individuals and just the overall working experience that I've been able to cultivate across the board.

Matthew Chiodi (07:39.498)
sure. mean that kind of response rate speaks volumes about who you are and how you're you're writing about something that you live.

Tammy Klotz (07:46.364)
Yes, which I think dovetails very nicely into your next question.

Matthew Chiodi (07:51.383)
Yes, yes. so the, the, as we've been talking, the process of writing a book can be a deeply personal process. How did, how did this whole process of writing help clarify or reinforce your leadership principles around empathy, authenticity, accountability? What was that like?

Tammy Klotz (08:14.044)
So it's been interesting, right? Because after you go through the process and you're telling people what has worked for you and what will help them be a better leader, the whole vulnerability aspect comes into play, right? So there is this personal challenge that you put in front of yourself that says, I am now putting this in print and

I need to make sure I am walking the talk that I have put down on paper. And it's, it's, you know, a little bit daunting from time to time because, you know, while I believe in everything that I've put in the book, I can't say that 100 % of the time that I've always followed all of those things. So one of the things that I've done now that the book has, you know, been out for almost a year,

Matthew Chiodi (09:03.565)
He he.

Tammy Klotz (09:12.988)
I know April 1st is a year which is kind of crazy. you know, when I give the book to people or people have purchased it and asked me to talk to me about it, sign the book, whatever, you know, I'm very open with them, especially my team who works for me. I'm like, look, I'm putting myself out there and you have the right, the opportunity that if you ever find that I am not walking the talk,

I want you to call me out on it and we're going to talk about it. And there may be reasons because of personal or certain circumstances that require me to maybe behave a little bit differently. But from a true character and value perspective, you know, I don't want to compromise who I am and what I've put in print as the leader that, you know, I have been over the course of the past three decades, which again seems impossible.

But it's also not something that I knew from the beginning. This is all built on stories and experiences over those years.

Matthew Chiodi (10:22.368)
It takes a lot of vulnerability to put that in writing and then for you to actually say to your team, like, Hey, call me out if I'm not, if I'm not walking this walk.

Tammy Klotz (10:30.332)
And it has happened, right? And no.

Matthew Chiodi (10:35.404)
Wait, you're not perfect?

Tammy Klotz (10:39.964)
And you know, I will respect when somebody will challenge that, but it also has to be in the right context, right? if, unfortunately I've had one or two situations where it's been kind of turned on its head and I'm like, well, that's not exactly what, you know, I intended as a result of, you know, saying that. And I remember going through the process with my writer and, know,

being empathetic and acting with grace, know, there's this concept around the fact that things like that can be what the industry refers to as soft skills, which I totally despise. corrected somebody yesterday at an event I was at and they're like, oh, soft skills. like, don't call it that. And they're like, well, what would you call it, Tammy? And I'm like, they're critical skills, right, that we need to bring to the workplace.

Matthew Chiodi (11:33.902)
Hmm.

Tammy Klotz (11:37.134)
But what's so important and where that balance needs to exist is, and this is what the question the writer asked me, she was like, so Tammy, like when is enough enough? Like you can't always be the good person, right? Or the one that is continuing to be empathetic. And there comes a point in time that you answer that question is when I...

She asked me, you when is enough enough? And I said, you'll know, right? And that situation has presented itself. And it's like, look, you're not gonna take advantage of me because of my empathetic leadership style. We're gonna have a different conversation then. And I've told my team that, right? Like, I will have your back until you give me a reason not to. And that is kind of that foundational level of trust that gets established.

Matthew Chiodi (12:05.485)
Hmm.

Matthew Chiodi (12:11.404)
Hmm.

Matthew Chiodi (12:24.32)
Hmm.

Tammy Klotz (12:31.458)
over time because if I tell you that and then you misrepresent or you you know have not been 100 % truthful for me and I'm going to bat for you that is not going to you know end well. It will end in a very different conversation.

Matthew Chiodi (12:49.122)
It's a two-way street. It's not that you, it's not that it doesn't, it doesn't change who you are as a person, but the situation, the individual, a lot of that comes down to trust, it sounds like.

Tammy Klotz (13:00.93)
Absolutely. I mean, as in any relationship, right? It's not just in a work relationship. It's across the board with your children, with your significant other, whomever you are trying to progress and accomplish things together. There needs to be that foundational element.

Matthew Chiodi (13:04.27)
Yes.

Matthew Chiodi (13:25.006)
You mentioned, talked a little bit about vulnerability already, but you mentioned specifically in the book how vulnerability and authenticity can be dangerous if a leader lacks credibility. So maybe talk, give me an example maybe of when demonstrating vulnerability worked in your favor or maybe a time when it didn't go as planned. If you know, it depends how vulnerable you want to be with your answer.

Tammy Klotz (13:35.907)
Mm-hmm.

Tammy Klotz (13:46.262)
Yeah, I'll actually take the, when it didn't go as planned, right? So, and I can share a very specific example of, you know, leave names and companies out of it. But, you know, there was a time when I was put into a position of additional responsibility as a result of some folks leaving the organization. And, you know, not necessarily a role I had taken on before. And it was in a business climate where we were being asked

to make decisions, make them quickly, implement the results of those decisions quickly. So I found myself on the side of having to decide on a very simple, are we gonna...

use Teams or are going to use Zoom? Right? And a common question, but why are we paying for both services? So, you know, made a quick decision, what I thought was the right decision. There were some things that I did not know about, you know, the competing technology that folks were using it for, because we hadn't done a full risk or gap assessment at that point in time. So made a decision, executed quickly, and as a result, there were some shortcomings.

Matthew Chiodi (14:37.271)
Hmm.

Tammy Klotz (15:01.054)
in the solution and there, what I realized after the fact was that even though it was a hurry up and do this, there was no room or no acceptance for.

I won't call it failure because I don't believe it was a failure. It's just a tolerance for bumps along the way. And in that situation, it was not tolerated. And that in turn led to me having to make some decisions about if this isn't okay and really reflecting on my role in the role of a chief information security officer.

Matthew Chiodi (15:18.541)
Mm.

Tammy Klotz (15:46.724)
It doesn't matter. Like, I can do...

as much as I believe is necessary, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna prevent 100 % of bad things happening. And if the expectation is that your job is to make sure nothing ever happens, I can't get behind that, right? Because this is not the world that we live in right now. So ultimately that led to me having to make some decisions about what was right for me. So yes, I was vulnerable.

Matthew Chiodi (16:09.293)
Yeah.

Tammy Klotz (16:22.214)
a little bit dangerous and ultimately it didn't go as planned. And then I had to be willing for my own wellbeing, self-care to say, okay, I'm okay to walk in this situation and make that decision. you know, that's a situation where I'll say it didn't go exactly as planned.

And it's always easier for us to talk about the bad side of the experiences. But I have way more positive experiences than bad, which is a good thing. And on that...

Matthew Chiodi (16:55.086)
Right.

Tammy Klotz (17:03.34)
you if I think about some examples where being vulnerable, you know, comes into play is that when I'll go back to an example from my days at Air Products earlier in my career before security, but I was was asked to lead our infrastructure network and voice technical support team and I walked into a team that, you know, of individuals who had been there for a very long time were used to doing

things in a particular way. And here I come into the group and have no network or voice background. And these folks are looking at me like, what is she going to do? Right? Like, my gosh, she knows nothing about this space. But that was really when, you know, I sat them down and I said, look, I said,

I'm not here to tell you how to do your job. I'm not going to be a technical expert by any means, but I am going to rely on each and every one of you to bring decisions to me that require an executive leader's decision, but you're going to have to educate me as to why. So being vulnerable in those situations, you know, going into

Matthew Chiodi (18:23.042)
Mm.

Tammy Klotz (18:27.33)
a team that was not necessarily high performing at that point in time and being vulnerable about, I don't know it all and I'm not going to know it all, but relying on you and allowing them.

you know, kind of in, it was in their fate of whether they were successful or not. But building that construct around how we were going to act as a team and how we were going to perform as a team, the amazing thing for that was that it was a huge transformational success. And in the end, that team was...

commended for their efforts in changing from a very siloed regional model to a global high performing team. And I can share, I did one of things I normally do when I join a team. ask them, okay, so what's working well? What needs to work better? What are the things that are keeping you up at night?

And I had a global team and folks, some of them are like, well, my kids or my video games. I was like, no, no, no, no, no, that's not what I'm really asking, right? So it was getting past some of that from a, I'll say.

Matthew Chiodi (19:40.59)
You

Tammy Klotz (19:52.656)
professional maturity level in some case. But the other thing was because it was a global team, like I was like, okay, so we can't do all of the meetings at, you know, nine o'clock AM US time because that's late for our Asia counterparts. So I did this like, okay, survey, when do you want to do nighttime meetings? And you know, I literally got answers like, well, that's when my favorite shows on TV. And I was like,

Matthew Chiodi (19:54.892)
Hmm.

Tammy Klotz (20:19.202)
Okay, right. So it just it makes you pause and you have to really force correct and think about how you're going to address those situations. So

Matthew Chiodi (20:23.502)
Right.

Matthew Chiodi (20:30.478)
I want to go to one part of the book that was probably the most impactful for me. And that was you talk about in the book, there was a moment where you talk about how people bring their entire selves to work, mother, father, caregiver, and how we don't shed those roles at the office door. That was like really powerful for me. Why is it important for leaders to acknowledge that fact? And then maybe talk a little bit how you've actually seen that play out on your teams.

Tammy Klotz (20:41.958)
Yes.

Tammy Klotz (20:59.344)
So it's not a switch that you flip when you walk in the door, right? And you can't turn it off. And in some cases, folks are having a grand life outside of the office. But more often than not, everybody is dealing with something. And if you don't acknowledge that, that that's a reality, you are going to impose a certain climate, a certain environment where

Folks are not going to be able to perform at the level that you need them. They're gonna be constantly questioning themselves. So if you acknowledge the fact that you're a human being, which isn't rocket science, right? And we know that there's stuff that you're dealing with outside of these office walls. Acknowledging that going into it is extremely important.

at one point in time, know, there were people who were like, yep, you come in the door, you're hanging your coat up, and when you do that, you know, you're now, you know, corporate Tammy. And, you know, as a single mom, I couldn't do that, right? And I can share a very specific example with you, Matt, that is around, you know, I was always very clear about my boundaries, what I was willing to compromise, what I was not willing to compromise, because I was, you know, the parent who

was present for my children and in that situation I was over communicative. I will be going to my daughter's end of camp experience on a Friday and oh by the way my mom has a doctor appointment that morning and I literally remember getting questioned about well are you working today or are you not working today and I very

Matthew Chiodi (22:35.96)
Hmm.

Tammy Klotz (22:57.178)
bluntly said, it matter? And in the follow on question to that is, was, my job getting done? And if my not, my job's not getting done, we'll have a different conversation. And that became a very pivotal point in my relationship with that leader at the time because it set the tone, it developed a level of respect.

Matthew Chiodi (22:59.992)
Hmm.

Matthew Chiodi (23:06.733)
Hmm.

Matthew Chiodi (23:10.69)
Wow.

Tammy Klotz (23:26.074)
and we never had to talk about it again. But had I not done that, I would have very easily been a slippery slope to say I had to give all of that up and I wasn't willing to do that.

Matthew Chiodi (23:38.479)
So there's the, there's the piece of, training your boss as well. I like to talk to people about, I'm like, there's a way to respectfully train your boss because some people will just, they will ex they will expect that your boundaries are their boundaries. Right. And it's, and it's a skill and it is harder to do.

Tammy Klotz (23:44.519)
huh.

Tammy Klotz (23:53.628)
Correct. Yes. Yes.

Matthew Chiodi (23:58.455)
when you're more junior in your career, but I think that it's something that if you learn early on, which it took me years to kind of learn that there's training of your boss that that absolutely happens. And the others, have healthier bosses where that's easier conversation, and then you'll have some that are not healthy at all. And it's, it's not a conversation that goes anywhere. And those are probably the places where I was for 18 months, right? So, so, but that's really what you're talking about, right?

Tammy Klotz (24:08.252)
Sure, absolutely.

Tammy Klotz (24:20.988)
Yes, absolutely. Yes, very much so, very much so. And we go back to the point we made earlier in this conversation is that foundation of trust. If there was a concern that I wasn't getting my job done and the fact that I was going to non-work things during the work day,

Matthew Chiodi (24:32.983)
Hmm.

Tammy Klotz (24:46.084)
yeah, that could very quickly deteriorate if there was not that level of respect and trust that came into play in that situation. And this was before working from home was like really a globally accepted thing across all companies because of the pandemic. But it was challenging kind of the norm and the status quo at that point in time. had put a sign outside my office and this was,

When I had had an opportunity to work outside of a technology team, was actually in the finance organization for a short period of time in different cultures, for sure. And I put, my normal work day is from nine.

Matthew Chiodi (25:20.044)
Hmm.

Tammy Klotz (25:32.188)
till three, those were my core hours. Well, that's not eight hours a day, right? But I was gonna get my girls on the bus. I was gonna be present in the office. And then oftentimes there was doctor appointments, other things that I needed to tend to when they got home. But that didn't mean that when they went to bed at nine o'clock or eight o'clock, I switched the hat, I spun the hat again. And then I went.

back and finish what I didn't do during the day and that was much earlier in my career as well but I also had to demonstrate that to my team right that it was okay that I'm not going to expect you know if you're getting your job done meeting your deliverables it's okay if you have to go to a doctor appointment or tend to something else that needs your attention during the day and that you know I've had recently had to

Two stories that I'll share. One of the gentlemen who works for me today, he actually has a tagline in his signature to promote kind of the acceptance of varied working hours. And it's very impactful because it says, my working hours may differ from yours. Please do not feel obligated to reply upon receipt of this message or something like that.

Matthew Chiodi (26:41.485)
Hmm.

Matthew Chiodi (26:51.106)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Tammy Klotz (26:57.406)
What you don't want to do is be the person who works for four hours on a Saturday morning and then your team is thinking that you're expecting them to reply. That's not the expectation, right? So that's a very clear example of how you kind of accept those differences. And then the other example that I was gonna share was...

Hmm, it's not at the tip of my tongue. We'll come back to it if it resurfaces. But you just, you have to acknowledge that there are, I remember what it was. So this concept of work-life balance, right? I was on a panel discussion last year with a couple of other.

Matthew Chiodi (27:37.207)
Mm-hmm.

Tammy Klotz (27:43.642)
women professionals and you know the one woman was on the panel and she was like look she was like work-life balance to me means one thing and that can be something extremely different for the person sitting next to me so you know don't feel the need to impose what you believe your vision of work-life balance is on me I own it I will

Matthew Chiodi (27:57.721)
Right.

Tammy Klotz (28:09.424)
live my work and personal life the way I choose to and it's okay. And I see that daily right now with one of the other members of my team. He is a sponge for learning and doesn't stop. And it's been a very open conversation about I am not expecting you to do this. This is something that you're choosing and I will accept that.

Matthew Chiodi (28:21.931)
Hmm.

Matthew Chiodi (28:35.04)
I had a very positive example of that when I was at Deloitte. So I was at Deloitte consulting for a number of years. And I remember it was one of our all hands for Philadelphia and our managing partner at the time said, Hey, we all work a lot, right? We're consultants. We travel. And he said, there are, there are times where I will just take off an afternoon to go golfing for four hours. And he said,

Tammy Klotz (28:52.187)
Sure.

Tammy Klotz (28:58.982)
Mm-hmm.

Matthew Chiodi (29:00.332)
Do I work for four hours on a Saturday then because of that? Yes, I do. He's like, but sometimes he's like, I just, he's like, sometimes I just need a break in the middle of the week. And he said this in front of hundreds of us. And I was like, I'm like, if this guy's a managing partner making millions of dollars, and he's saying that, you know, just in the middle of the week, he'll just say, you know what, I need to take four hours by myself and just go golf. That to me was huge to hear a leader say that. That was really powerful.

Tammy Klotz (29:04.316)
.

Tammy Klotz (29:08.827)
No,

Tammy Klotz (29:21.819)
Mm-hmm.

Tammy Klotz (29:26.19)
Absolutely, and it goes into the topic of self-care because if you are at that point in your day, in your week, and you are just spent up to here, you're not being productive anyway, right? So walk away, refresh, regroup, whatever that looks like for you, and come back, you know,

kind of purged of all of that negativity or whatever was keeping you from being productive. Because forcing yourself to try to be productive under those conditions is the epitome of being counterproductive. So do what you need to. It's kind of the same thing I remember trying to teach my daughters, right?

You need to give yourself time and space if you're frustrated, if you're overwhelmed. You you can't let it consume you 100 % of the time, but give it the time that it deserves. So if you need to like cry, if you need to scream, whatever, whatever the emotion is that you need to exert, you know, schedule it. Give it the 15 minutes, the 30 minutes it deserves and just deal with it. And then...

it back up, put it away and refocus because if you don't do that it just gnaws and eats away at you.

Matthew Chiodi (30:52.396)
Hmm.

Matthew Chiodi (30:56.374)
I think for a lot of people, I remember speaking with a guest about this probably, probably been a year or two ago now, which is about how a lot of people will talk about self care, but oftentimes they don't do it until it's almost too late, right? It's too late. They're already burnt out. They're, you know, things are not going well at home because of it, or maybe it was at home. Maybe it was something at home. You know, what, guess my question is, like, how do you,

Tammy Klotz (31:08.188)
practice.

Matthew Chiodi (31:23.96)
How would you advise people to more blend this into the fabric of their lives rather than just waiting for that moment of crisis?

Tammy Klotz (31:31.758)
So it's something that I was taught in a situational leadership class, and it really has to do with the accumulation effect, right? Because if you don't deal with things, they will fester. And this is one of my kind of key operating principles that I share with any new team that I onboard. It's like, look, if something's bothering you, I want to know about it when it's bothering you.

don't brush it under the carpet, don't wait till the next time. If you don't want to talk to me about it, talk to somebody else about it. Because ultimately, I think the example from the training course was like, all this stuff has happened during the day at work, and you go to the grocery store because you need to get milk and eggs or whatever on the way home, and the clerk gives you the wrong change.

and you like totally lose your mind on them because they gave you a nickel instead of a quarter. I don't know, right? But that completely undeserving soul has now gotten the lashing of everything that has been piled on throughout the day, the week, whatever that is. So if you don't take the time to deal with that stuff, that's the danger that you run into. And a lot of times, it's not unheard of that

Matthew Chiodi (32:34.018)
Right.

Tammy Klotz (32:55.694)
we do that on the people who care about us the most in some situations. So having an ability to kind of outlet and deal with that frustration, anxiety, whatever it is, is extremely important.

Matthew Chiodi (32:59.394)
Hmm.

Matthew Chiodi (33:13.696)
Yeah, I like that and I appreciate that because, you know, I think I've heard the analogy of, know, when you wake up in the morning, you've got, you know, eight spoons or something like that. And throughout the day, you're kind of handing them out as you deal with different crises. And if you're not aware of where you're at in that process of how many do I have left? Like, should I really engage in this discussion? Like, I mean, it's all part of self-awareness, but this is specific specifically.

Tammy Klotz (33:26.98)
Yeah, yeah.

Tammy Klotz (33:35.025)
Mm-hmm.

Matthew Chiodi (33:41.615)
Relevant for me. remember working with a therapist a while ago talking about a situation that had come up with me and my wife and I remember him saying You know, hey just let's just rewind that situation a little bit at what point did you know? That it probably wasn't wise to go further in that discussion and I was like probably even before it started and it's just like, you know So it's like exactly what you're talking about. It's that self-awareness where where is this? I need to should I go be going down this path right now? Am I in the right right mental state?

Tammy Klotz (33:54.022)
Bye.

Tammy Klotz (34:06.748)
I mean...

frame of mind, exactly. you the other, one of the other things that I do, Matt, what I do now with my current team and it's had to change over the course of the different positions that I've held based upon dynamics, locations and things like that. So my team right now is, is globally dispersed, right? Different time zones, different countries, et cetera. So this whole concept of getting together and, you know, do team building isn't a thing, right? Cause we can't, we can't. So how, how do I create that

Matthew Chiodi (34:26.883)
Hmm.

Matthew Chiodi (34:35.853)
Hmm.

Tammy Klotz (34:39.678)
sense of camaraderie, the water cooler talk, whatever. And so what I do right now, and we did it this morning, is we have a half hour carved out. It's called Friday Fun. Everybody gets on. It's 30 minutes. The only rule is you're not allowed to talk about work.

Matthew Chiodi (34:50.83)
Hmm.

Matthew Chiodi (34:55.404)
Ooh, I like that.

Tammy Klotz (34:55.804)
So it's simple and we kind of go around the virtual room and talk about what's going on this weekend, what do the kids have, what's being planned. And it just allows a release. cleansing might be not the right word, but it's free. No judgment, no work, and it works. And I'll tell you what, like.

Almost everybody shows up for it all of the time because everybody looks forward to it. But there are times when you can't be there and that's okay too. But you need to know that it's there and the fact that it's scheduled, you know, during the workday makes it okay for them to participate. You know, other places I've been and other teams that I've had, we've done things like axe throwing on a monthly basis or we've done bowling, right, where I had more ability to kind of

Matthew Chiodi (35:49.826)
Hmm.

Tammy Klotz (35:53.676)
get everybody together at the same time. But when that's not something that is conducive to the environment, you have to be creative about other ways to bring them together.

Matthew Chiodi (36:04.174)
I really like that, I might steal that actually. It's a good idea. So throughout your book, and it's obvious from our conversation today that you're a sponge, you're always looking to learn. You talk a lot about continuous personal development in the book. What does your personal growth or self-care routine look like? And how has that changed me over the last five or 10 years?

Tammy Klotz (36:06.746)
Go ahead, have a blast.

Tammy Klotz (36:24.592)
when

Tammy Klotz (36:27.984)
Yeah, it's definitely changed over the course of growing up because my life has changed, right? So when my girls were younger, we had a routine, like what we had to do, when we had to do it, when they got to bed, and what I was doing for myself.

Matthew Chiodi (36:35.246)
Hmm.

Tammy Klotz (36:48.962)
Now that's different. The girls are grown. You know, so and I'm like, it's at the end of the workday. I'm like, like what am I going to do now? So for me, it's really, you know, evaluating where am I getting my energy from? Where do I need to recharge? How do I need to recharge? And what brings me that joy, that satisfaction? So, you know, being around people is something that brings me a lot of joy and being able to interact. So I find myself

Matthew Chiodi (37:15.49)
Hmm.

Tammy Klotz (37:18.846)
in situations where, you know, I'm looking for opportunities to, you know, get involved, whether it's a cyber event, whether it is, you know, some other sort of community network where I can give back. You know, one of the other things I've started doing, which is not really people, you know, interfacing, but I've started making blankets, right? So, you know, get the granny in the basement doing her basements.

Matthew Chiodi (37:47.918)
That's great. It's great therapy. It is great therapy.

Tammy Klotz (37:48.718)
That's not the image I want. It is great therapy and I will tell you it's very interesting to me because my youngest daughter who's at home with me, she's like, Mom, like you need to set up an Etsy store. You need to start selling these things, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, yeah, but that like doesn't make it fun anymore. Then it's a job, right? Whereas my older daughter, she's like, well.

Matthew Chiodi (38:07.768)
Hmm. Hmm.

Tammy Klotz (38:12.312)
mom, you want to make people feel good and you want to give back. That's like what you taught us. So that's why you're doing the blankets. And I'm like, yeah, like there's wisdom in both sides of, you know, what they're bringing. And it's so rewarding to hear both of them share kind of their position about, you know, something that is seemingly benign, right. But it's very impactful from that perspective. So finding those things that, you know, bring you joy.

give you the energy that you need or give you the space that you need to recharge your energy to keep going. So we can take on a variety of forms, you know, and it's going to be different for everybody. You just need to figure out what that is and take that time for yourself.

Matthew Chiodi (39:00.94)
Yeah, I appreciate that. I've had various different things I've done over the years and I'm probably still not the best at just like having fun per se, but I've found some things that are, some things that are enjoyable. I probably don't do them as much as I would like to, but some of that is dictated by also by stage of life and just where you're at, right?

Tammy Klotz (39:10.224)
Bye.

Tammy Klotz (39:17.542)
Sure.

Absolutely, 100%, 100%. I'll share with you one super exciting thing that I'm working on right now. it kind of was a, you know, just a thought a couple weeks ago. And I am totally blessed by an amazing friend network that I have cultivated.

over the course of my life. So I'm like, you know what? I want to get together with all of them, right? Because there's different, you know.

Matthew Chiodi (39:52.172)
Hmm.

Tammy Klotz (39:55.964)
factions or different groups that you know it's the folks I worked with in high school, it's the folks I you know worked with at Air Products, however they're defined, right? So I'm actually planning a weekend in the beginning of May called the Sisterhood Social and just to bring everybody together, right? And you know some of them are like, what's she doing, right?

Matthew Chiodi (40:20.79)
Hahaha

Tammy Klotz (40:23.088)
But I found this great place where we can all go hang out. We're gonna do fun stuff and you can participate or you don't have to participate. But it's that sense of belonging and the ability to connect.

Matthew Chiodi (40:34.062)
Hmm.

Tammy Klotz (40:37.254)
decompress and kind of just walk away. It's kind of like Friday fun for a weekend for the girls. And I'm just super, having a lot of fun planning it and everybody's had stuff in their life, right? So appreciating them as human beings and giving them a safe place to just kind of chill is gonna be cool and I'm really looking forward to it.

Matthew Chiodi (40:49.763)
Yeah.

Matthew Chiodi (41:01.774)
Sounds really fun. I think that's a really good idea. I'm going to check back up with you on that in a couple of months and see how that went. But I'm sure there's going to be a lot of good stories out of that one. So, you know, for someone listening who maybe wants to begin a similar growth journey, maybe they're leading a team, feeling stuck or whatever it might be, what's a good first step that you might recommend they take to start leading with empathy and grace?

Tammy Klotz (41:06.209)
Absolutely, let's do that for sure.

Tammy Klotz (41:27.534)
So the first step is to look inside yourself and figure out what's important to you. I talked earlier about setting boundaries. What are those things that you are not willing to compromise on? What are the things that you are willing to compromise on? Because one of my, I have it in the book, and one of my favorite sayings is that you can't take care of anybody else until you take care of yourself.

Matthew Chiodi (41:30.766)
you

Tammy Klotz (41:57.39)
it's the flight attendant, know, put your oxygen mask on first. And taking that, you know, kind of...

internal look at who you are and what's important to you. You can't lead others until you kind of sort yourself out. So that's honestly my first bit of advice to anybody who is either struggling or thinking about what they want to do next. You don't know until you like take that inward look at yourself and it may require you to write it down because ultimately you're going to you should come back to it and

say, okay, well this is what I said, but it's not what I'm doing. And being able to challenge yourself on that as well. So that's my first piece of advice, is to really look inward and reflect on who you are and what's important to you.

Matthew Chiodi (42:53.794)
powerful. It's powerful. Thanks for sharing that. Well, Tammy, this is a it's been a fun conversation. Is there anything else that I should have asked you or that you wanted to cover?

Tammy Klotz (42:56.708)
Absolutely.

Tammy Klotz (43:03.836)
I mean we've touched on a lot of the points that I drive home in the book. think the one thing maybe that we didn't touch on is the concept of resilience and you know life is gonna throw.

Matthew Chiodi (43:15.478)
Hmm.

Tammy Klotz (43:19.446)
stuff at you. I've refrained from cursing a couple of times in our session today. Not terribly, but you know, there's going to be stuff that comes your way. It's going to be stuff that you don't expect. You don't understand. And you know, the one of the messages that really resonated with me recently is that the comeback is always better than the setback.

Matthew Chiodi (43:45.198)
Hmm.

Tammy Klotz (43:45.868)
And I think that that is true if a situation is handled with that mindset. And if you read kind of my intro to the book, there's a lot of vulnerable stuff that I put in there just with regards to my life experiences. And it would have been very easy to kind of downward spiral on the heels of any of those events. But you've got to get back up. Fall down seven times, get up eight.

Matthew Chiodi (44:14.989)
Hmm.

Tammy Klotz (44:15.742)
and you know, ss.

Being resilient is a trait that is applicable to our children, to the world of cybersecurity that we do. It's how do you recover from a bad situation and be stronger as a result of that. I mean, that's probably, you know, we didn't talk about that a whole lot, but I can leave that as my parting wisdom for those who are listening is to focus on being resilient.

Matthew Chiodi (44:47.99)
powerful too. I appreciate that. Thanks for closing us out with that. That's a good one. Well, Tammy, thanks for joining us. This has been powerful and I think it's going to help a lot of people. So thanks for coming on the show.

Tammy Klotz (44:52.226)
Absolutely, absolutely.

Tammy Klotz (45:00.622)
Absolutely, thanks for having me, Matt. I truly enjoyed it.